Incited.ca · Patrick Rocca-Toronto Real Estate Changing Again

Jeffrey:

I am here with Patrick Rocca of Bosley Real Estate here in Midtown Toronto, and we’ve talked to Patrick quite a few times in the past. And I’m going to let Patrick tell everyone about him and what he does.

Patrick:

Hi, good morning, Jeff. Patrick Rocca here with Bosley Real Estate in the Midtown area. I predominantly work the Leaside Davisville Midtown North Toronto area. And yeah, happy Tuesday.

Jeffrey:

Yes. Fantastic. So, Patrick we were talking last and you reminded me that you’ve been in this business for 30 years and 30 years, a lot has changed. So take us back to 1993 and, and what it was like. This is kind of, you know, early to pre-internet, really. So how are things different?

Patrick:

Wow. Yeah, they’re a lot different. I was getting married in 1993, which was interesting. I was just starting out in the business. There actually was no business. It was very, it was a very quiet market at that time. We were coming out of that that real huge downturn of the late eighties, early nineties, high interest rates. So it was totally a different market. I mean the way we did business was different. There was, there was no internet, or we were just getting into the advent of internet, sort of in the mid, I would say the mid-nineties. Everything was done via fax. Like when, when I had clients who were looking for listings, I would fax them listings in the morning. It was kind of weird. We would get daily updates from the Toronto Real Estate Board on paper, like in a booklet.

Patrick:

And we would, you know, photocopy stuff and fax it to clients, and it was just yeah, it was very weird. Open houses were really a big thing back then. And I remember when I started just doing a lot of open houses and yeah, it was a very flat market. It wasn’t a seller’s market and it wasn’t a buyer’s market. It was just it was just blah. But I, I managed to get into it at a kind of a good time for me in, in my neighborhood. And it all worked out and sort of snowballed. Yeah.

Jeffrey:

Thanks for taking us back then. You know, faxes and paper and things have really changed quite a bit for not only for, for sellers, for buyers, for agents before we get onto the current market, do you have a feeling that with all this information flowing around, that things happen more quickly in the market, that, you know, transactions happen more quickly?

Patrick:

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Everything is, is fast and furious now, even, even in the down market. I mean, I mean, with the advent of internet and, you know, people have more options and abilities to to, to research online all, albeit, that does not replace a realtor. So people can look online, they can look at what’s available, what has sold statistics all that sort of stuff. So, I mean, but stuff still happens very quickly. I mean, with the, with the age of the internet and, and everything that we’re dealing with yeah, things, things happen really quickly. I mean, when I put something online, like literally, it’s, it’s, it’s live. I mean, just an example, I listed something yesterday. I’ve already got 15 showings on it. So I mean, it’s, things happen much more quickly now.

Jeffrey:

Wow. And, you know, going back to the, the 93 market, I remember that, you know, there was a big, big run up in prices than all of a sudden, you know, things kind of came back to earth. Interest rates were in the, the high teens. If people can even imagine that, that’s, that’s crazy. But now, you know, there’s, there’s a whole bunch of different things that are actually happening to the market. So maybe you could talk to, you know, the, the, the seller side and, and the buyer side of what we’re seeing in the last sort of four to six weeks.

Patrick:

Well, it’s been, honestly, since we, we actually had a talk a couple of weeks ago, and even since then, things have changed. I mean, the reality is, is that no one really knew what to expect coming into 2023. I mean, we had a very interesting 2022, I mean, a big run up in the first three, four months of the year then with interest rates going up a softening of the market and subsequently a decline of prices. I mean, and, and it, they, they, that decrease ranged anywhere from 10, 12% up to 25, 30% in the outside of Toronto in the, in the 9 0 5. So, I mean, in, in, in my market specifically Midtown Leaside, I mean, it’s, it’s 12 15% down easy. Summer came last year there was nothing people traveled because of they were allowed to, and they were able to after all the, the lockdowns and chaos during Covid fall came, and actually, it, it didn’t come.

Patrick:

It was there. There it was like buyers sort of said, you know what? We’re on hold. We’re going to wait. We’re going to see what happens. And the fall was a very, very quiet time. There was transactions but they were few and far between. As I suggested back in the fall. And as I suggested earlier this year, I think when we talked, and when I talked to several of my clients, I think we flatlined in the fall. I was telling buyers in the fall, you know, buy now, buy now. It’s, it’s a good time. I mean, not stuff is sitting, there’s good opportunities. It’s down, you know, 15%. I mean, at least in our area from, from, from the peak. And of course, you know, some people did most buyers as, as is the case, sat on the sideline because they were reading the papers and they were reading all the experts apparently, quote unquote in the media that we’re saying, you know, it’s coming off another 25%.

Patrick:

I didn’t think that, I thought maybe there was a downturn for maybe another three, 5% potentially. It, that has not happened. We have started out of the gate this year just last week I did three deals multiple offers on one a hundred thousand over asking we are starting to see multiple offers. We are starting to see property sell over asking does that mean we’re out of the woods? Absolutely not. But it, it’s a sign that there are buyers out there. I listed with something last week. I had 33 showings in, in 24 hours, two offers, like I said, sold it for a hundred thousand over asking another, another property, same sort of thing. Sold it, not over asking, but I’ve got a, I’ve got a very good offer with a good closing firm condition firm offer, no conditions. And I’ve just listed something yesterday.

Patrick:

Again, I’ve had 15, 16 showings in 24 hours, I suspect it will be sold, and it’s a $3 million home. So, and we’re seeing it, we’re seeing it right across the board. We’re seeing it from, you know, $1 million properties, even up to the higher end. I saw something last week, a three high, $3 million properties sold to multiples. So I’m not saying the train has left the station but I’m saying that, you know, there’s, there’s some positive signs and how long that will continue. I, I, I don’t know, but it’s, if you’re, if you’re a buyer, you might want to get in now.

Jeffrey:

Yeah. And like anything on either side, you know, of, of any market situation, there’s people who basically profit or do better when things rise. And there’s also people who profit when things fall. And you know, there’s, you know, going back to the internet, there’s all sorts of information, and both buyers and sellers can be overwhelmed with the amount of information and opinions about, you know, should you sell, should you wait? You know, interest rates are going up now, they’re going down. And it really becomes difficult for someone who does not spend their entire day in real estate understand the market over years to really get a sense of, of what’s happening not only in the next sort of six to 12 months, but on a year to year basis. You know, we heard last fall, oh, the market’s going to come off in, in the GTA 30%, and, you know, people are going to be, you know, struggling to meet their payments because rates are going to rise so much. And, and to a large extent, like you said, things are, are less horrific than that. So, you know, in, in terms of what you advise your clients, how do you help them get a sense of what the, the, the direction is and provide them guidance and, and where to go, and whether they’re buyers or sellers?

Patrick:

Well, I mean, it’s different on, on, on both levels, right? I mean, if, if it’s buyers, I mean, I’m, I’m telling buyers. I mean, and, and you know, it’s funny, I was on a, a Facebook chat last night and I was looking, I didn’t comment on it because I just didn’t want to go there. But I mean, I’m, I’m listening to people talking about the market that have no clue, that one, one person was insinuating that you know, the market’s off and it’s going to come down like the 1980s, and it’s still plummeting. And I mean, it’s just, there’s so much misinformation out there on the, on the internet right now. And people, everybody thinks that they’re a professional realtor or professional real estate expert. And, you know, at the end of the day, it’s about working with a, an experienced person, someone who’s been there, someone who’s in the market.

Patrick:

I mean, you know, some people will say, oh, as realtors, we’re trying to spin a, a positive spin on the market just so that we can do sales. And, and, and that’s not true. I mean, we’re in the market. I, I’m, I’m seeing what’s happening and I’m being realistic. So if you’re a buyer, I’m telling you, you should be buying. I, I was saying that in November because it’s a good time. Yeah. The market may come off another couple percent, it ain’t coming off 2025, excuse my English. But it’s a good time to buy if you’re long term. If you’re a seller and you, you must sell or you are in the market to sell it’s a different game. You have to be realistic. You have to look at the market and understand that, listen, we’re not February, 2022.

Patrick:

I mean, the house that I sold this week for 1.7, very reasonable seller they understood that that property last year was 2.1. Mm. They realized they weren’t getting 2.1 in February, January of 2023. They got 1.7, they got a hundred thousand over there asking last year we would’ve probably listed at the same price. 1.599, we would’ve got two this year we listed 1.599, we got 1.7. So as a seller, you have to be realistic. You have to understand that the market has changed. Those sellers that are out there still hanging on. And, and there are people out there. I mean, right now inventory is still very low. And if you look at lease side, we’ve got 11 listings, you know, Davisville 14. And a lot of those are what we call retreads. As I’ve said that, you know, they’ve been on the market since last fall, and they’re not with the program. They’re not getting it. They’re overpriced. They’re still reaching and thinking of early 2022. They have to get into the mindset in terms of we’re in a 2023 market. It’s different. The prices are different, the strategies are different. You know, you have to price it, right? You have to present it well, you have to market it and time it properly. Those are the key things.

Jeffrey:

Yeah. And even going back to the internet, the, you know, these days there’s information, there’s also tools for those, those brave sellers who wanna go it alone. But like you said, it’s more than just putting pictures on a website and, and choosing a price. You know, a as you mentioned, you know, things change. And if you really don’t have the intelligence talking to buyers on a daily basis, understanding the market trends, you, you can then be left with one of these retreads, even if you think, oh, well, I, I’m going to save myself a couple thousand bucks by, by listing it on, on one of these sites.

Patrick:

Oh, yeah. I mean, and we see that time and time again, regardless of whether it’s a good market or a down market. And, and I, I have to sort of chuckle when I see that sort of stuff. I mean, my, I was talking to someone yesterday and they decided they were going to go with someone else because it was commission based. Well, good luck. I mean, you know, you get what your paper, I mean, anybody can sell their property. I mean, I always say to people, you can put a sign on your lawn, you can sell your property. You know, you know, Joe Blow from, you know, 0.5% realtor can sell your property. But the question is, is how much are they going to sell it for? How much are you going to sell it for? You want, I mean, people look at commission and they, they think that they’re saving, but really they’re losing because, you know, a professional experienced realtor with a good program and a good system is going to get you more. It’s just, this is proven fact. It, it is what it is, right? Yeah.

Jeffrey:

Yeah. And, and like you said, with, with the current seller you just worked with, if they got a hundred thousand over asking and their property sold in a reasonable amount of time, that’s, you know, going to make up for hopefully the, the commission savings, but also the stress of having a, a product on the market, you know, that doesn’t sell. It’s kind of like putting something on one of those auction sites and it doesn’t sell, and it’s there. And then when people see that the days on market is over, you know, 30 days, 45 days, they begin to think, oh, well I can just offer a low amount for this pro property cuz they are getting desperate. Right. So you’re, you’re, you’re absolutely right. You know, you have to look at the entire picture. You may be saving on the front end, but you could be losing on the long end because in a market which doesn’t have, you know, real significant momentum, you may find yourself kind of over under thinking where you’re going to go in terms of marketing. In terms of pricing your property.

Patrick:

Yeah. Well, I, exactly, and I mean, you know, I, and I deal with this daily. I mean, I, you know, I, I had a gentleman called me in November, wanted to list his house. I pulled it up on the internet, I was out of town, and I was going to talk to him when I came back. And I was just outta town for the weekend for a, for a wedding. And I arranged a meet with him on the Tuesday, and he told me where his house was and what it was, and I pulled it up and you know, he was thinking his house was worth at least a half a million more than what I thought it was worth. And I, I told him, you know, politely that I didn’t think it was worth where he was, but we would talk about it when we met.

Patrick:

Anyways, long story short he canceled the appointment. I never did meet with him, listed with someone else, listed it at the price that he told me he thought it was worth it did not sell. It’s now with a second realtor, still too high. I had, you know, someone call me this morning and say, you know, what do you think of this? And I said, well, it’s, it’s, it was half a million overpriced. Now it’s 200 overpriced. It’s on the second realtor. And you know, the person saying, well, what if I offered him what you think it’s worth? And I said, I don’t know if he’ll take it. Because again, it’s an, an unrealistic seller. So that’s unfortunate too, right. You have to deal with unrealistic sellers.

Jeffrey:

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we’ll, we’ll always have, you know, those type of sellers. And you know, to a certain extent there’s a kind of like, like you said, if, if somebody is, you know, determined, bound and determined to get their price, you know, they can, you know, continue to sit and sit and sit, eventually maybe something will come up. But it could be a significant amount of time. And most people real estate transaction is a very big deal. It’s a significant amount of money, and it could be a lot of stress, especially if you want to sell and you are looking to move to somewhere else, another property, you’ve have to put everything on hold while you’re still in the midst of this transaction. For a lot of people, they don’t necessarily want to tie up that much, you know, mental energy in waiting for this type of thing.

Patrick:

Yeah, no, it’s, it’s, selling a home is very stressful. And I, and I completely get it. You know, everybody’s got issues going on. I’m, you know, I was dealing with something last week. I was supposed to be listing it yesterday and ended up being a death in the family. So we had to delay. And I mean, you know, you, you get people that have financial issues and, and I completely understand that at the end of the day, it’s my job to, you know, to sort of not separate myself from that, but to separate myself. I mean, and, and explain to people that, you know, listen, you know, I understand your financial restraints. I understand that, you know, you would like this much for the property, but at the end of the day, the market will tell you what the property’s worth. And my job is to get you what market value, what market value is, and what a, a buyer is prepared to pay, and hopefully what you’re prepared to accept. So that’s, that’s kind of where I, I come into play. Mm-Hmm.

Jeffrey:

Even in the design world, you know, you become a, an expert in, in design in construction, you’re an expert in real estate, but to a large extent, you’re also a bit of a, of a counselor where you have to evaluate someone’s situation sometimes, tell them the hard truth and, and help them understand sometimes that, you know, they may not get what they want for their property, but, you know, here’s, here’s the reality of what’s going to happen. And being able to, to be able to, to do that effectively, you know, a good communicator really does help them understand the reality of the situation. So it’s not just technical or market in information or lengthen the business. You have to have all those skills together.

Patrick:

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Communication is key. And I mean, it’s funny, you mentioned about some of the things that I, that I deal with and I, I, I always, I kind of joke, but I, I’m, I’m very serious when I say it, I say to my wife, you know, I’m, you know, I’m a part-time psychologist, part-time funeral director, part-time. I mean, I deal with death and divorce and, and it’s just, I’m, I’m wearing so many hats and I have to sort of, you know, be that guy that, you know, and, and communication is key. I mean, you have to be able to communicate with people and, and explain to them what’s going on in the market, but also understand what they’re going through personally and it’s very important.

Jeffrey:

Yeah. I know honestly, I’ve dealt with a few realtors and you know, as a buyer or seller, you, you really want to have a sense of how other agents you know, relate to your agent. I, you don’t necessarily want to go with the agent who always, you know, is the one that, you know, other agents don’t like to deal with for whatever reason. You know, that can affect the, the number of, of showings and, and the offers if your real estate agent is just not pleasant to deal with. And so that’s the type of thing, communication, being known in the industry, really having a reputation as somebody who is, you know, fair, honest, and really will do what they say.

Patrick:

You know, what that is, that is so critical. And it’s funny you say that cuz the, the, the property that I, that I sold last week, one of the properties I sold last week, the agent, you know, started off by saying, congratulations on the sale of your other property. And I’ve heard a lot about you and I look forward to doing business with you. And, and I think that’s key. I mean you, you, you have to have not only a reputation with your clients, but a reputation within the industry. Funny aside, and funny story couple, couple of years ago, I’m sorry to, to veer off, but this is a funny one. A couple of years ago, an agent called me, was bringing me an offer on one of my listings. There was a couple of other offers, and he was asking me about the process and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Patrick:

And I went through everything with him, and I told him how I was going to handle the offers and et cetera, et cetera. And he said, thanks, I’ll be back to you. Hung up the phone. He bum called me about a minute later. And I heard his conversation, and he was telling his clients about the process and about how I explained what was going to happen and how I was very reputable and very good to work with, and very fair. Which I, I I could hear the conversation and he didn’t know that he bum called me. So it was, it was kind of, it was kind of funny. So then I hung up and he ended up bringing me an offer. He ended up not getting it, but I told him after the fact, I said, by the way, I said, you bum called me this afternoon. And I said, I heard your conversation with your client. I said, it’s a good thing you didn’t call me a name.

Jeffrey:

Yeah.

Patrick:

I said, and he laughed. He goes, oh my God, you heard that? And I was like, yeah, it was all good. But he could have easily have said that, you know, Hey, you know, this, this guy’s an idiot and you know, he’s, he’s not good to deal with, but he, he actually did the opposite. And that that was a good, that was a good good feeling.

Jeffrey:

Yeah. And, and, and you know, this is a, a side that a lot of you know, homeowners don’t really understand is what happens within the industry with reputation. You know, with, with, even when we were in a situation a couple of years ago with a lot of multiple listings, and people would try to come in and do some, you know, I wouldn’t say dirty tricks, but you know, something which wouldn’t necessarily be, you know, condoned by the, by the industry. And, you know, often those type of, of agents, maybe they’ll do well in the short term, but long term, you know, if you’re representing clients, maybe you would think twice about taking an offer from this, this type of agent.

Patrick:

Yeah. No, you’re a hundred percent right. And I mean, honestly, if you’re an agent, you’ve been in the business, you know, 15, 20, 30 years there’s a reason for that. And you, that means you’re, you’re doing something right. So

Jeffrey:

Yeah. Let’s talk about the, the vacant home tax. City of Toronto was brought in to helpfully release some homes, which, which they think are being held vacant, and they could be put onto the market to you know, relieve some of the pressure on, on rentals. Let me know what your thoughts are on that.

Patrick:

I think I alluded to it when we had last talked, obviously, but I’ll just sort of give you my, my thoughts on it now and where they stand today. I think it’s ridiculous. I think the whole process the whole system what did it cost to set this up? What is actually going to be you know, where are they going to make their money? Is this really going to work? How are they going to police this? I just think that this is not going to do anything. This is another government intervention as governments do to think they’re showing people that they’re actually doing something. Now, as of February 2nd, which was a deadline, there had been 85% of the people that had gone online and filled out the application. The, the city in their infinite wisdom has now extended it to the end of February for the other 15% .

Patrick:

Which I, whatever, I don’t get it. I’d like to see how many homes this is going to free up. I think it will have zero impact, much like the foreign buyer’s tax. I mean, honestly, they implemented that in 2017 or the foreign buyers’ moratorium. I mean you know, there’s ways around that people figure that out. You know, in the anti-flipping legislation, I mean, that’s been around anyways. I mean, if you own a property, you buy it. If you sell it in under 365 days, you have to pay tax. These are all things that have come up that the government is, is, is introducing or reinventing to make it look like they’re doing something. And at the end of the day, I, I just don’t see it having any impact whatsoever on, on housing today. That’s just my, my personal opinion, and I think that a lot of people feel that same way.

Jeffrey:

And so your advice to buyers and sellers don’t expect a massive change in prices from this legislation.

Patrick:

Well, I mean, it’s, it’s not necessarily prices. It’s, it’s, well, I mean, is it going to affect prices? I don’t think so. Is it going to affect inventory? No. I mean, are you going to get a few more properties come on the market because you know, someone you know isn’t living in it? I mean, maybe, but is this going to be the, the be all to end all? Absolutely not. I mean, there, we, we’ve got a big, we’ve got bigger problems, and they’re not short-term fixes. And what the, what the, the governments are governments are doing is, you know, making it look like they’re doing something for short-term fixes. And this is not a short term fix. This is a long-term fix. So I mean, honestly, I just, I have to laugh at some of this stuff. It’s, it’s, it kind of makes me shake my head.

Jeffrey:

Yeah, yeah. This stuff, you know, like you said, over 30 years you see stuff come and it goes and, you know, sometimes it’s just kind of brought back again. Because like you said, there’s, you know, some fundamental challenges with the GTA real estate market that probably don’t have short term fixes. And, you know, the, as a buyer or a seller, you, you can’t be waiting for these things to come and, and really fix what essentially is longer term structural issues with the market.

Patrick:

Yeah, no, I, and I agree, and I mean, that’s the whole government issue is, is, is a whole different topic. But I mean, you know, and then they’re talking about in increasing immigration and, you know, where are these people going to go? I mean, where are they going to live? You’re talking 250,000 people a year. I mean, majority of them settle in Toronto, right? Because it’s a big city and, you know, where are they going to live? Where are they going to get healthcare? I mean, that’s another whole issue. I mean, there’s just it’s actually a, it’s a sad state of affair. Yeah. And I don’t think there is a short term answer to tell you the truth. I mean, there may be little fixes along the way, and I think that’s the best they’ll be able to do. But this is a, this is a long term issue that has not been thought out. And it’s not just the current governments, it’s past governments that just ran with, you know, with everything. Right? Yeah.

Jeffrey:

Yeah. I ha I have to agree with you and you know, we’ll, we’ll see over the next couple of months as we get into the summer how things transpire, you know, with all the big macro factors, interest rates, that sort of thing. But if anyone wants to get a hold of you, what’s the best way for them to contact you?

Patrick:

Best way to contact me is through my office here on Vanderhoof at by phone at 416-322-8000. You can also email me. I’m always constantly on my phone. I have immediate access to my email wherever I am, and I’ll get back to you right away. It’s mail@PatrickRocca.com

Jeffrey:

All right, Patrick, as always, it’s been great chatting with you and we’ll look forward to chatting in the next couple of months and have a look back on, on this call and see how things have transpired. Have a great rest of your week.

Patrick:

Absolutely. And I, I, I do hope it’s as positive moving forward as it’s been over the last three, four weeks. So fingers crossed.

Jeffrey:

Crossed. Fingers crossed. For sure. Thanks again

Patrick:

Thanks. Have a great day.

Jeffrey:

Thank you. You too. Bye-Bye.